Should writing Javascript be avoided in favour of GWT/WebSharper or some other abstraction?

I'm curious what's the view on "things that compile into javascript" e.g. GWT, Script# and WebSharper and their like. These seem to be fairly niche components aimed at allowing folks to write javascript without writing javascript.

Personally I'm comfortable writing javascript (using JQuery/Prototype/ExtJS or some other such library) and view things like GWT these as needless abstractions that may end up limiting what a developer needs to accomplish or best-case providing a very long-winded workaround. In some cases you still end up writing javascript e.g. JSNI.

Worse still if you don't know what's going on under t开发者_StackOverflowhe covers you run the risk of unintended consequences. E.g. how do you know GWT is creating closures and managing namespaces correctly?

I'm curious to hear others' opinions. Is this where web programming is headed?

Should JavaScript be avoided in favor of X? By all means!

I will start with a disclaimer: my answer is very biased as I am on the WebSharper developer team. The reason I am on this team in the first place is that I found myself a complete failure in writing pure JavaScript, and then suggested to my company that we try and write a compiler from our favorite language, F#, to JavaScript.

For me, JavaScript is the portable assembly of the web, fulfilling the same role as C does in the rest of the world. It is portable, widely used, and it will stay. But I do not want to write JavaScript, no more than I want to write assembly. The reasons that I do not want to use JavaScript as a language include:

1. There is no static analysis, it does not even check if functions are called with the right number of arguments. Typos bite!

2. There is no or a very limited concept of libraries, namespaces, modules, classes, therefore every framework invents their own (a similar situation to that of R5RS Scheme).

3. The tooling (code editors, debuggers, profilers) is rather poor, and most of it because of (1) and (2): JavaScript is not amenable to static analysis.

4. There is no or a very limited standard library.

5. There are many rough edges and a bias to using mutation. JavaScript is a poorly designed language even in the untyped family (I prefer Scheme).

We are trying to address all of these issues in WebSharper. For example, WebSharper in Visual Studio has code completion, even when it exposes third-party JavaScript APIs, like Ext Js. But whether we have or will succeed or fail is not really the point. The point is that it is possible, and, I would hope, very desirable to address these issues.

Worse still if you don't know what's going on under the covers you run the risk of unintended consequences. E.g. how do you know GWT is creating closures and managing namespaces correctly?

This is just about writing the compiler the right way. WebSharper, for instance, maps F# lambdas to JavaScript lambdas in a 1-1 manner (in fact, it never introduces a lambda). I would perhaps accept your argument if you mentioned that, say, WebSharper is not yet mature and tested enough and therefore you are hesitant to trust it. But then GWT has been around for a while and should produce correct code.

The bottom line is that strongly typed languages are strictly better than untyped languages - you can easily write untyped code in them if you need to, but you have the option of using the type-checker, which is the programmer's spell-checker. Why wouldn't you? A refusal to do so sounds a bit luddite to me.

Although, I don't personally favor one style over another, I don't think that abstraction from Javascript is the only benefit that these frameworks bring to the table. Surely, in abstracting the entire language, there will be things that become impossible that were previously possible, and vice-versa. The decision to go with a framework such as GWT over writing vanilla JavaScript depends on many factors.

Making this a discussion of JavaScript vs language X is fruitless as each language has its strengths and weaknesses. Instead, do an objective cost-benefit analysis on what is to be gained or lost by going with such a framework, and that can only be done by you and not the SO community unfortunately.

The issue of not knowing what goes on under the hood applies to JavaScript just as much as it does to any translated source. How many people do you think would know exactly what is going on in jQuery when they try to do a comparison such as $("p") == $("p") and get back false as a result. This is not a hypothetical situation and there are several questions on SO regarding the same. It takes time to learn a language or framework, and given sufficient time, developers could just as well understand the compiled source of these frameworks.

Another related aspect to the above question is of trust. We continuously build higher level abstractions upon lower level abstractions, and rely on the fact that the lower level stuff is supposed to work as expected. What was the last time you dug down into the compiled binary of a C++ or Java program just to ensure that it worked correctly? We don't because we trust the compiler.

Moreover, when using such a framework, there is no shame in falling back to JavaScript using JSNI, for example. It's all about solving the problem in the best possible manner with the tools at hand. There is nothing sacred about JavaScript, or Java, or C#, or Ruby, etc. They are all tools for solving problems, and while it may be a barrier for you, it might be a real time-saver and advantageous to someone else.

As for where I think web programming is headed, there are many interesting trends that I think or rather hope will succeed such as JavaScript on the server side. It solves very real problems for me at least in that we can avoid code duplication easily in a web application. Same validations, logic, etc. can be shared on the client and server sides. It also allows for writing a simple (de)serialization mechanism so RPC or RMI communication becomes possible very easily. I mean it would be really nice to be able to write:

account.debit(200);

on the client side, instead of:

$.ajax({
    url: "/account",
    data: { amount: 200 },
    success: function(data) {
        ..
    }
    error: function() {
        ..
    }
});

Finally, it's great that we have all this diversity in frameworks and solutions for building web applications as the next generation of solutions can learn from the failures of each and focus on their successes to build even better, faster, and more awesome tools.

I have three big practical issues I have with websharper and other compilers that claim to avoid the pain of Javascript.

• If you won’t know Javascript well you can’t understand most of the examples on the web of using the DOM/ExtJs etc., so you have to learn Javascript whatever. (For the some reason all F# programmers must be able to at least read C# or VB.NET otherwise they cannot access most information about the .net framework)
• On any web project you need a few web experts that know the DOM and CSS inside out; would such a person be willing to work with F# rather than Javascript?
• Being tied into the provider of the compiler, will they be about in 5 years’ time; I want full open source or the tools to be supported by Microsoft.

The 4 big positives I see with these frameworks are:

• Shareing code between the server/client
• Having fewer languages a programmer needs to know (javascript is a real pain as it looks like Jave/C# but is not anything like them)
• The average quality of a F# programmer is a lot better than a jscript programmer.

My opinion for what it's worth is that every framework has its pros/cons and a project team should evaluate their use cases before including one. To me any framework is just a tool to be used to solve a problem, and you should pick the best one for the job.

I prefer to stick to pure JavaScript solutions myself, but that being said I can think of a few cases where GWT would be helpful. GWT would allow a team to share code between the server/client, reducing the need to write the same code twice (JS and Java). Or if someone was porting a Java client to a web UI, they may find it easier to stick to GWT ( of course then again it may make it harder :-) ).

I know this is a gross over-simplification, because there are many other things that frameworks like GWT offer, but here is how I view it: if you like JavaScript, write JavaScript; if you don't, use GWT or Cappuccino or whatever.

The reason people use frameworks like GWT is not necessarily the abstraction that they give--you can have that with JavaScript frameworks like ExtJS--but rather the fact that they allow you to write web applications in something other than JavaScript. If I were a Java programmer who wanted to write a web application, I would use GWT because I would not have to learn a new language.

It's all preference, really. I prefer to write JavaScript, but many people don't.